topic Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4! in Home Cinema, Projectors & Players

Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:20:54 GMT

Really strange, this - after the recent change to Film 4 (Channel 15), I cannot get the broadcast display or sound on my RDR-HXD870 Freeview Recorder. Instead, I just get a black screen followed by "This channel is not in service" (as an error-message, not a broadcast message). I have tried Initial Setup > Digital Tuner > Replace Channels, which ought to work - and even resorted to a full reset (Stop-Power) to totally start again with the channel storage, and still no audio-visual content is evident on Channel 15, although both the title and the EPG schedule are there as expected.

The (Samsung) TV shows Film4 without problems, although I did have to do the complete retune to get it, which was a pain - losing all favourites and some other stuff. At least it works OK after that, though, whereas there was no such joy with the Sony, so I can watch Film4 (via the Samsung TV's tuner) but cannot record it (via the Sony recorder's tuner)... Except, that is, an hour behind by using Film4+1, which works fine (on both devices).

The RDR-HXD870 does have the latest-available firmware (v1.70) installed, and the other Freeview channels seem fine, including the new Film4+1 - it's just the 'replaced' Channel 15 (Film4) that won't seem to work.

Can anyone help with this problem? It's been a bit fraught, lately, with Freeview on my Sony recorder! Does anyone else have the same problem?

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

Anonymous — Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:30:54 GMT

Hi there

Do you see Flim 4 in the 800's channel range? If so, just swap the channels.

If not, try these two suggestions below.

1 : Full retune of RDR-HXD870

Unplug the aerial connection to your HDD Recorder.
Perform a full retune of the HDD Recorder with the aerial still disconnected.
Once you have "blanked" out all the channels, confirm this by plugging the aerial cable back in, you should get no signal.
Keep aerial plugged in and perform a second full retune
Check to see if all channels now work

2 : Perform a manual tune of the Film4 Channel

See page 133/134 of the RDR-HXD870 manual : Here

See manual tuning instructions from DigitalUK : Here

Hope that helps

Cheers.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

rooobb — Fri, 30 Aug 2013 14:54:18 GMT

Just an other options: after the reset of the machine (power-off+stop) did you unplug from main for at least 1 minute? I'm not sure this help, since this is normally useful when you don't find a channel tuned after a reboot of the machine.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Sat, 31 Aug 2013 15:07:07 GMT

Thanks, guys - I think of found the cause, but cannot see how this can be overcome - due to the 'unusual' way in which the Sony tuner's software works.

rooobb, this didn't make any difference to my own reset: no, I didn't remove the power for a minute - but have now... Same result.

Quinnicus, I tried your option 1 and it didn't work any differently to what I had done before: it successfully removed all of the prgrammes/channels to a zero-count, thus 'greying-out' the channel options in the menu as a kind-of confirmation - just as the full reset had done. Having re-tuned, all is the same - with a present-but-non-functioning Film4 as channel 15.

Your option 2 doesn't apply to these recorders, unfortunately: there is no manual retune of individual channels on these units, only a 'global' re-scan or a 'global' add-new-channels scan. The instructions to which you referred in the Sony manual relate only to the now-redundant analogue tuning/scanning. The (Samsung) TV does have individual -channel- scan (i.e. to retune the individual programme 'stacks'), which I have tried... But no such option is available on the Sony (Pah!).

That is a shame, because it might have solved the problem, if Sony had included this option in the digital tuner software, because what I've found is as follows - and this connects to your initial comment, "Do you see Flim 4 in the 800's channel range? If so, just swap the channels".

EVERY time that I try tuning the Sony, it stores 123 programme slots - with position 15 occupied by a Fim4 with all of its programme info' yet no picture and no sound received. It places the "Film4 has moved..." transmission at pos.791 but it does not store a Film4 entry in pos.800, instead placing the ITV regional variation in that location.

...AND YET, on my old Samsung budget TV, tuning/retuning stores 124 programme slots, placing a fully-working Film4 at pos.15, the "Film4 has moved..." transmission at pos.791, a Film4 entry in pos.800 that seems to have picture, sound or even no programme info', with the ITV regional variation shifted to pos.801.

This might strike you as really odd behaviour (and it is!) until I say that EVERY time I tune the Sony I get the following. Note that changing to France vice UK doesn't help:-

Both D.TV 'auto scan' or Replace Channels following power-on after full factory reset (Add New Channels not available at this point):
Near the end...
   Existing channels 0
   Channels found 124
At the end...
   Search complete. 123 channels
   found. 1 duplicate channels removed.
   Channel information updated

Both Replace Channels and Add New Channels:
Near the end...
   Existing channels 123
   Channels found 124
At the end (Replace Channels)...
   Search complete. 123 channels
   found. 1 duplicate channels removed.
   Channel information updated
At the end (Add New Channels)...
   Search completed. No new channels
   found. Channel information updated

Could I be correct in assuming that the Sony software finds both '15' and '800' Film4 slots, presumes them to be duplicates and either stores 800 at pos.15, using the Film4 programme info' and applying it to the correct position (15) through a separate process? Whatever the explanation, there seems to be a bug / design malfunction on the Sony (RDR-HXD870 with v1.70 firmware) which cannot cope with the Freeview setup for Film4 that's just happened - at least in my transmission area, more likely across the UK, I'd guess.

Can anybody help me further with this? Nothing tried so far has worked.:smileysad:

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

Mr_Onion — Sun, 01 Sep 2013 08:54:53 GMT

It may be that you are getting a strong signal from an adjacent transmitter causing Film4 to be found twice.

An Aerial Attenuator may help as it reduce the other signal below the threshold of the tuning head sensitivity

EDIT Another thing worth trying is hiding Film4 that you have in the 800's, and then do a manual rescan. That might store the correct one.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Sat, 07 Sep 2013 12:16:54 GMT

I think I can probably rule out "getting a strong signal from an adjacent transmitter causing Film4 to be found twice" by virtue of things going fine for so long and only changing when the way Film4 was brodcast changed, and also that my TV has no problem at all when running from the same antenna (in fact, its feed comes via the Sony!).

I don't know how many more times I can iterate that I've done many 'manual' rescans but that there is no manual rescan of individual channels available in the limited Sony software on these units, and that it seems that the Sony firmware rejects the correct transmission as a 'duplicate' (of the non-functioning slot).

Is this all a lesson that the restricted Sony Freeview tuning software just doesn't 'cut it' (automatically throwing out the baby and actually keeping some of the bathwater!) or is this strangely a freak occurrence - with most transmission-areas having a working Film4 slot at position-800? I'm surprised that more owners haven't suffered (or noticed) the same problem. I know a RDR-HXD970 owner living in broadly the same area who also has an interest in this topic, suffering similar problem with Sony recorder cocking-up Film4 and other-make TV displaying Film4 at pos.15 with no apparent problem.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

Anonymous — Sat, 07 Sep 2013 14:04:37 GMT

Hi there

Firstly - I do not know the solution to your problem, sorry.

Secondly - Sorry I did not get back to you, I did look into your problem a little further, couldnt find a concrete solution, and forgot to post back.

Anyway, it looks like your not the only one with this problem. See the following page:

http://www.ukfree.tv/showchannel.php?id=FILM4&PGSTART=450

Scroll through and read the comments. Its not just the Sony tuner on the RDR... Although I guess some devices tuners are more tempermental than others.

The only thing I can suggest is possibly report the problem.

Hope you get it sorted.

Cheers.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

Pascale_F — Sat, 07 Sep 2013 15:35:04 GMT

Hi there niicko,

Have you tried contacting Sony Support? They may be able to help solve this. Do let us know how you get on.

Many thanks,

Pascale

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Sat, 07 Sep 2013 23:48:47 GMT

Thanks, guys - will try to report it to Sony support (thanks for the link, Pascale). Ironically, that's not functioning correctly, either! ("E-mail support is not available at this time due to maintenance. We suggest to browse our website which contains many answers to common questions").

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

mijewen — Sun, 08 Sep 2013 12:33:49 GMT

Tried contacting Sony Support?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hee hee

Good luck!

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:02:15 GMT

Oh. D'you mean there isn't any Sony support, just an email facility toward a black hole?

Incidentally, it seems I may have got it wrong about the 'RDR-HXD970 owner living in broadly the same area' - I checked and it seems they can receive Film4 normally. Oh well, possibly just us RDR-HXD870v1.7 owners, then.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 11:54:03 GMT

Ah, I see what you mean:smileyrolleyes:.

Progress(?) report:-

Submitted 'case' to Sony Customer Support over four weeks ago, complete with all relevant detail. Two weeks spent reiterating detail given in original submission when questioned and repeating tasks, already reported upon in original submission, when instructed to do so. It's now two weeks since escalation of the case to "a higher technical department":smileysad:.

It may be that it has received no attention from this second-line support, as I have not been asked/told anything, or maybe someone is scratching their head over quite how to work around the bug in the recorder's tuner-software that automatically rejects the 'proper' Film4 channel in favour of the non-transmission channel (that gets stored at pos. 800 on equipment with less 'erroneous automation' or more flexibility/selectivity in tuning).

Stll no joy with retuning: I keep hoping that the 'alternative' Film4 place will disappear now that Film4 has been redesignated for a while, and that the Sony will therefore no longer treat the wrong channel as a duplicate, thus circumventing the Sony software bug - but that doesn't seem to have happened. It's all that I can do, though, given the very basic tuning facilities on the Sony and the lack of any contact from the Sony technical department. A right pain, because I also have to recreate all of my recording programmes every time.

I will try to report back every so often - and especially if Sony come up with a fix that others can use.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Sat, 02 Nov 2013 19:13:06 GMT

OK, it's now 8 weeks since I raised this problem with Sony customer support. It's nearly 7 weeks since it was escalated to "a higher technical department" and over a fortnight since I emailed customer support for an update - with no communications received from either.

I just tried yet another reset to get rid of the channels and then a rescan... And still get the notice, "1 duplicate channles removed" - only to find that it was obviously the 'proper' Film4 transmission, leaving the 'duffer' that was the one that should have been junked or else stored at pos. 800.

So far, then, I'm left to presume that this problem has been consigned to the Sony bin of 'bugs we don't intend expending any effort on'. I guess mijewen's reaction was more insightful than my faith in Sony / blind optimism.

So why do we pay the premium for Sony products? I can state that my Samsung TV does not give any such trouble with its Freeview firmware. Is that a lesson?

Sorry if anyone has watched this thread in the hope that I relay to all Sony's definitive answer to the bug, because their Sony recorder has the same problem: unfortunately, Sony haven't been any help at all with this problem - which still persists for me as I guess it does for you. Poor.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:31:17 GMT

OK, my 'case' has now been with Sony for 18 weeks and they have been largely useless. To be fair, they have been getting back to me periodically, rather than appearing to be a 'black hole', but every time it sounds like they have forgotten the details of the case.

On Friday I got some sort of sign-off reply, the most ridiculous yet:-

"With regards to the duplicated channels on your RDR-HXD870 recorder, we recommend get back to the channel support. The customer has confirmed that same channel is duplicated on Samsung TV. So, it seems that provider moved the channel on different frequency and did remove it from the old one which may cause the issue on the 2 TVs.".

This is flawed on 3 counts:-

1. "the 2 TVs" are not two TVs at all, but one Sony Freeview recorder with software that cannot properly handle Freeview and one non-Sony (Samsung) TV that has no problem with it at all.

2. Why would Sony presume that Freeview will realign its TV transmissions to work around a bug in the software of some Sony Freeview tuners? I don't believe that they would even do that for Sony themselves.

3. This is Sony customer support - not the kind of service that you believe you will get when buying into the brand!

Sorry to anyone who has the same problem but, as you can see, Sony customer support is no support at all so far, in this case, and it seems that we're on our own.

I have asked whether it's a bug that's only in the v1.70 firmware - and, if so, how do we revert to the original software - or whether the bug is inherent in all RDR-HXD870 firmwares - in which case is there some software way of working around the de-duplication that takes place automatically, so that the 'good' channel is not deleted in favour of the useless one.

Crumbs... This is sounding like a blog!

I'll post any positive update, should there ever be one to make. I hold out little hope, though - based upon my experience so far. I can't imagine myself buying any Sony product at all whilst this issue is being handled so poorly and ineffectively.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

Anonymous — Sun, 12 Jan 2014 17:22:18 GMT

Hi there niicko

Just to inform you, I am on the understanding that your 'case' has been flagged up. Support should hopefully get back to you shortly.

Cheers

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:50:53 GMT

Yes, well - this is rapidly becoming an issue of lack of any effective support whatsoever.

Thanks, Quinnicus - but when they did get back to me I only got the same ridiculous bit of inappropriate 'sdvice':-

Sony customersupport.en, Fri'10/01/14:-
"With regards to the duplicated channels on your RDR-HXD870 recorder, we recommend get back to the channel support. The customer has confirmed that same channel is duplicated on Samsung TV. So, it seems that provider moved the channel on different frequency and did remove it from the old one which may cause the issue on the 2 TVs."

Me, Sun'12/01/14:-
"When reading this case history you will notice that the Samsung TV gives NO PROBLEMS whatsoever and allows me to remove the 'extra' Film4 slot from view/selection and retain the proper one as normal. The Sony Freeview recorder, however, AUTOMATICALLY deletes the good Film4 and leaves me with only the 'extra', useless one."

Sony customersupport.en, Mon'13/01/14:-
"Please accept our apology for any inconvenience; however, we confirm to you that as long as the channels are duplicated on both TVs the fault is not with your DVD Recorder, we recommend referring back to the service provider for more assistance in this matter."

Me, Mon'13/01/14:-
"there is NO problem with a duplication "on both TVs" because there is not any "both TVs"!! There is NOT any such problem with any TV that I know of!!! There is a Sony Freeview recorder that DOES manifest the problem and a non-Sony (Samsung) TV here that DOES NOT manifest any such problem!!!!"

Quinnicus, is this how they usually operate? Bear in mind that it has taken 18 weeks to get to this point: arguably LESS further forward than we were at day #1 (at least they accepted it as an issue back then).

Very frustrated at having such a seemingly-impenetrable layer between the customer and their problem and anyone who could actually do anything about it (or even comment upon what I have suggested about backtracking on firmware, etc., e.g. if it's probable that it's only a problem with v1.70).

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:44:03 GMT

@niicko I really dont know what to say in regards to that reply from Sony Support. It is indeed a disappointing response without fully reading your replies and understanding of your situation.

Im going to relay your response back - but I am not a Sony employee, therefore have little control of the situation. I can fully understand your frustrations on trying to get through to advanced support. I am happy to say though, that it is not the norm

On a side note though, have you though about contacting an authorised Sony repair centre for your local area, and see what they say? Just a thought. See : HERE

Cheers

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

niicko — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:22:08 GMT

Thanks, Quinnicus, for doing what you did - apparently, the case has been (re)escalated somewhere, which at least gives hope for a proper resolution.

As for "contacting an authorised Sony repair centre for your local area", actually there aren't any in my town nor even in the entire county... Which makes it a bit of a 'journey' (literally!) to even discuss it first-hand with one, especially pre-empting the "leave it with us to test" kind of solution.

The thing is, the Freeview tuner is not actually broken or malfunctioning 'as such', I think it's just that its oh-so-helpful de-duplication routines were not written or tested properly and the fact that there is not a user-override 'switch' in place leaves the user up a bit of a gum tree. There is no worse automation than that which 'automatically' does the wrong thing!

I guess if Sony are really worth their reputation, they will make a firmware tweak, either fixing the erroneous de-duplication routine or, more likely, removing the de-duplication so that users can just remove/hide unwanted stations from the stored list (just as one would with any other 'bogus' stations like the Test slot, HD channels on a non-HD recorder/tuner such as this - or all those er, 'minority' Freeview channels that we just want to remove).

Cheers

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

Anonymous — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:56:01 GMT

Thats ok - hopefully you will get a more technical answer one way or another.

In regards to that local repair centre - quite often someone in a local repair place will know more on localised issues that what a big company does. Mainly from reports and jobs from other residences. But if you dont have one in the local area, its of no use.

Re: Freeview Recorder Doesn't Show the 'New' Film4!

dathmar — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:36:09 GMT

You are not alone.

Just to say I get the same problem

I have a RDR HDX870

I can re-tune the box - I see Film4

Turn the box off

Turn on - Film4 is a black screen with the message about - This channel is not in service

Re-tune - Film4 back again.

All other channels are fine.

I connected another PVR (Sagem) to the same aerial ( some sort of loop through idea) so that the signal feed goes to Sony then from the Sony to the Sagem and then from the Sagem to my TV and both TV and Sagem PVR have no problems with the Film4

So the problem is ONLY the Sony RDR HDX870

Feel free to quote me and pass on my user id - if they need to contact me they will have my email address.

BTW - I had dealings with Sony before with a LCD TV that stopped working after 13 months. They said there was no known fault. However there was hundreds of people with the same problem online(goodness know how many people in total). When I eventually got the whole screen replaced (£450 later) - I was told by the engineer that replaced the screen that the screen they put in was a different revision to the original ...he said they do not make revisions on screens unless they know there was a problem with the old screen as it costs too much to do this. (software faults can be done via firmware)

So Sony are no strangers to having problems and not wanting to own up to them.

Good Luck anyway

- for the moment we are both +1 hour on channel 45 only (later to bed I guess)